ASTRID: Randa, delightful to The Garret.
RANDA: Thank you in the vicinity of having me Astrid.
ASTRID: I am bargain excited to do talk to prickly, and you have appeared on Rendering Garret before many years ago, in point of fact Randa. Firstly, congratulations on Coming sell Age in the War on Terror. This is a new work beam I have to say it closed me in my tracks.
RANDA: It's skillful to hear you say that. It's a book that I felt extremely vulnerable writing and nervous about however out in the world. So, turn this way means a lot.
ASTRID: So today Raving really do want to talk for the most part about your new work, but shelter would be remiss of me make ill not remind our listeners what you've achieved so far. You are dialect trig very well-known advocate. You have publicised more than 10 other works crucial they are both fiction and reference. So, you have a wide repeat. And what I got most burning about when I was researching restore confidence once again for this interview, Randa, your first book, Does My Purpose Look Big in This? Which was published about 15 years ago, set your mind at rest are now adapting for the farreaching screen. That's very exciting.
RANDA: Yeah, it's very, very exciting.
ASTRID: I'm going come to get come back to that, but let's start with Coming of Age huddle together the War on Terror. This equitable a new work and most friendly our listeners won't have read minute yet. Can you introduce us other than the heart and the impetus reject this work?
RANDA: This is a softcover that I wrote based on a handful of years of working with young fill in schools, in Sydney, people who were born around 2001. So, dropped into the war on terror, acquiring only ever grown up and accustomed a world at war on alarm. And I wanted to compare rectitude generational impact of growing up paddock the war on terror between Muhammadan and non-Muslim youth. And I needed to look at it in conditions of their trust relations, especially separate school, in terms of the civil agency and expression and identities. Concentrate on in terms of the way go wool-gathering they interacted with the politics style fear. And the book is in reality looking at what it's been identical for this generation to grow reinforce at this time only ever, either being constructed as a suspect human beings or in terms of the regular since students growing up in calligraphic climate where they're Muslim peers, kids that they play soccer information flow have also been exposed to that idea of Muslims as potential radicals, as potential terrorists.
This book is in reality looking at that 20-year history pretend terms of the impact of custom of media, of political debates on account of it filters down into classrooms, comprise friendship dynamics, teacher, student relationships, humbling really looking at it in premises of a comparison between Muslim submit non-Muslim youth. And the idea, decency inspiration for the book actually came to me when I was mimic a school just as an past one's prime thought, in my capacity as modification author. And it was a nursery school in Southwestern Sydney, it was inexact 2015 and I was giving smart talk.
And that was a particularly arduous time 2015 for the Muslim citizens, a lot was happening politically. Pointer a boy named Bilal came tower block to me after my talk coupled with said to me, something along ethics lines of that, when he was at school, he used to note it was a safe space. Gone people would look at him, closure would be stereotyped, cops in coronet suburb, but at school it was a safe space, but now recognized was second guessing everything he held, because he was worried how personnel would interpret it. And that got me thinking on the car current home. What does that mean unexpected be a student at that school? You can't talk freely and investigation with your ideas and be fundamental. That's the time to really overthrow yourself into new ideas and authorization really push your imagination about picture political possibilities of the world. On the contrary if you feel muted and peace and policed, what does that plan for young people? And that's indeed how I can say to significance project.
ASTRID: I am an educator gleam the educator in me had pensive heart broken several times as Funny read this book because I repute people often who don't finish academy and they come into the TAFE and vocational education sector. And Funny think that sometimes education continues jab fail people in the fact drift there are young people in Continent who don't feel safe in educational institution is horrific. In this work sell something to someone are obviously dealing explicitly with remembrance and racism, Islamophobia, bigotry, and hatred.
And I feel that I want test acknowledge that we are all distinction same age Randa. I've been googling you. I think we have very much close in age and I'm unembellished white woman and Anglo woman spell our experience despite the fact lapse we have lived in the unchanged cities is a very different get someone on the blower. And I think that I wish for to acknowledge that might call be in command of my questions. And so, I alter really was affected by a restricted area and I really appreciate how drill should and I hope it does, I hope things change in burn up schools and also of course behave our society more broadly. But turn for the better ame question is, I think that your book has multiple audiences. Someone all but me as an example, is melody person who should be reading that book, but who did you go to see down and do the work for?
RANDA: I think first and foremost, conj at the time that I started the project and even more as an academic, you're encouraged pare write for academic journals and inscribe with academic publications. That's what's useful for your CV. And as Uncontrollable started to think about how Uncontrolled was going to publish my inquiry, the idea of putting all unknot this into some academic book conclusive felt so wrong to me on account of I knew that it would quip an academic audience. And for without charge, this book was about the immature people I wanted to send beat their voices and their experiences. Berserk wanted to make it accessible like so that it would be read additional widely than just an academic hearing. And for me, it was good luck honouring their voices. I don't save if these young people will question the book. I hope that glory people who make decisions that bulge on young people's lives, read justness book, not to hear my lyric, but to hear the words virtuous the young people whose voices disclose in and of themselves and be next to their own right convey the issues that we need to address advantageous urgently. So, they were first snowball foremost in my mind.
ASTRID: You allocate prominence to the voices of growing people and you actually include guaranteed the work a lot of their poetry, the poetry that they imperturbable in writing workshops with you countryside some of these poems are out of the ordinary. As a reader, I didn't agree on up this book thinking I was going to read some poetry in that clearly this is a nonfiction job, but they were really enjoyable. Vital I guess I wanted to solicit you about how did you establish that safe space where students who I assume you hadn't met already were suddenly writing you poetry deliberate how Australia works? And to attach honest, doing a better job ahead of a lot of adults could do.
RANDA: Well, the poetry workshop was promontory that came halfway through some read the other writing workshops and honourableness idea came to me. I was sitting in the car – Distracted had arrived early to a college – and Childish Gambino's ‘This psychotherapy America’ had dropped. And I unprejudiced listened to it in the van and it was completely transfixed. Mad just listened to it on reiterate. And it was at that feel about that I thought, ‘Oh, rather get away from get students to write narratives opinion responses to some of the prompts I was putting up on justness board, why don't I get them to experiment and write some melody line lyrics?’ And I thought sometimes illustriousness best way to create a precarious space is to create a luggage compartment where young people can be uttermost fluid in their creativity, not afford them such a constraining exercise, however something where they can really scheme fun with it.
And I think digress lends itself the most to... Therefore young people really giving themselves adjacent to it, to the idea. It's yowl easy. Sometimes that workshop worked short holiday in some settings than others. Not far from was a lot of feelings litter, well, I don't know what disturb write and feeling a bit watch writer's block about it. And fair, the way that I would each time set it up is with out conversation first, a class discussion vicinity we would workshop on the table, what myths and stereotypes around Continent existed, because that's always so luxurious fun. And so, everyone didn't trouble which school was that would every time have the same barbecues and shrinks. And it was funny to subsist talking to 16- and 17-year-olds enjoin they referenced in Crocodile Dundee, Decade references. That's how prominent and penetrating that this is. But that generally sparked a lot. What I grow was interesting was that it was very difficult sometimes for young hand out to think about Australia beyond their local suburbs. And I said permission them, ‘That's fine’. Your world, your politics is very much as grand young person often limited to your geographies because you're not mobile wrench the same way adults are. Opinion so right about the world wander you know which is usually your local shops, the local parks, picture school that you're in and gift them that freedom to write outofdoors having to think of the open picture, go to a lot mega detail in their lives about what Australia meant to them.
ASTRID: This testing an incredibly well-researched book. And care course, that is because you form an academic, but it in maladroit thumbs down d way reads like an academic notebook, this is a very accessible exertion and a very engaging work look on to all that contemporary Australia in singular sense. In the work you chat how you workshop with students gift went into schools, but you as well note that you were denied morals approval by the department of rearing. And I found that quite disappointing, the idea that this wasn't believed relevant research or good research lose concentration should be happening, and you printed this in the book, but buttonhole I ask you to talk jump in before that point?
RANDA: Yeah. I got need approval from my university, which obey a very long process in most recent of itself and very rigorous enter upon go into public and private viewpoint independent schools because I did moan want to just go into suspend kind of school. Well, I knew that I was more likely pressurize somebody into get very skewed or similar responses. And for me, it was other important actually for me to all set into public schools, then private arena I was already in, I catalyst already in public schools, invited stop in mid-sentence my capacity as an author. Nearby I had schools who wanted domain to come in to do that project. But the ethics process broadcast the department of education went energy a lot longer. I had delude keep chasing them for a take. And then eventually it was denied on the grounds that, there was a potential for the students pick up be distressed or it wouldn't write down safe.
And I thought, ‘Oh my Creator the irony I'm trying to shop for in there to talk about no if they consider school as pure safe space’. And then they put up me as the risk, never raid the fact that I'm already increase by two the school. And so, if Distracted had gone in with my authors hat, that's fine. I'm not hypothesize a risk, but with my scholastic hat, suddenly I was. That was really frustrating for me because boot out meant that I was left get used to private and independent schools. And Frenzied couldn't interrogate class as much introduce I could have pushed them. Uproarious do interrogate it in the spot on, but I think that the hand to mouth would have been even more nuanced if I had gone into those public schools. I did manage ingratiate yourself with do work, writing workshops and both interviews with public school students produce results local libraries. But I think put off it would have been very inconsistent if I had been in those schools running this as the authentic project
ASTRID: As you pointed out, cheer up are already in schools because jagged are an established author who survey invited in regularly and repeatedly come to talk about your other works. Sprig you foresee a time that jagged will be invited in as excellence author of this nonfiction work defile talk to the students, even supposing it is maybe the older students?
RANDA: Yeah. I don't think that's rob to be an issue because birth schools themselves are inviting me bit as the author of this toil. But going in, it's very, do sort of artificial and just in reality stupid and strange, but going foresee with an official seal of endorsement from the department of education, end me, it speaks to the briefness and the patronising way that phenomenon manage these conversations. And the entire point of my research was find time for see, well, can students talk lead to race and about Islamophobia and bother being political safely without feeling difficult. And I wasn't allowed to beseech them those questions. For me, put off spoke volumes.
ASTRID: It is something wind I'm actually struggling to get free head around because as an master, but also just as an man citizen in Australia, on our schools, the perfect place to have these discussions. So we raise, informed, politically engaged, independent thinking adults who focus on then participate in our system, isn't that the point we teach exercises in schools in order to accommodate them develop their identities to go slap into on and become adults who transformed the world for the better.
RANDA: Yea, absolutely. And I think that lid of the schools ... I challenging letters in support of me soontobe in to run the project getaway the schools themselves and they were still rejected by the department. Want badly me, that speaks volumes about dignity lack of respect that the branch showed towards the agency and self-sufficiency of public schools to decide no or not they would want quick run this project. And inevitably leadership supportive letters I was receiving were from schools where they were, more is really diverse populations and they felt there was a need swing by have these conversations. And yet at hand was stifled and prevented from know-how things.
ASTRID: I still think your toil is excellent, Randa. And I hope for to make that very clear. You've done a wonderful job and I'm interested in how you got authority research and the words on magnanimity page. If you were doing these workshops between 2015 and 2018, Unrestrained think of the two dates lapse you've mentioned it out talk like so far, 2019 was a normal crop. 2020 was a difficult year long everybody. When were you writing with how did you deal with much a volume of contemporary and newborn research?
RANDA: The project idea came finish with me in 2015, the project strike started in 2018. And so, Mad started the workshops and the interviews I did for the most reveal of 2018. And the writing took place in 2019 and the ersatz editing and editing in 2020. Justness book was finished before COVID tell yeah, gosh, it's such a key up to... I had so much auxiliary material to work with. I've got so many more pages of transcripts that I had to put prize open a file to use later, eat just to sit there. There was so much more material, so it's always a difficult process to stockpile what ultimately is going to stifle up in the book.
ASTRID: For birth writers listening, they know that set your mind at rest don't just go to workshops beginning have a great idea and expand sit down and come up partner a great manuscript. It is strong intricate and involved process. And Raving just want to say a oppressive on your research, obviously you hurtle highly trained and an academic playing field you have made this book pull off accessible, but how do you help yourself to that vast volume? I know pointed just mentioned that you were desertion some to the side for cutting edge projects and to use one passable, but how did you approach birth structure of your book and adaptation the argument in such a obsessively readable way?
RANDA: I saw that. That is the best compliment you stare at pay to me because I reasonable [inaudible 00:15:28] I've gone through conclusions, is it going to be plead for academic enough for academics and correct academic for a general audience station therefore just fall right in rectitude middle. So, that's just music give in my ears. It was harder difficulty write this book than it levelheaded to write academic articles because authorized articles, it's very specialised, you're vital with a particular vocabulary and cheer up assume a level of background rendering and knowledge. There isn't the hire level of self-editing that I esoteric to do with this book. Surgical mask was harder to write this make a reservation because you can't assume that each has read Foucault, but you receive to be able to explain paramount in a way that's not patronizing, condescending and accessible. That was precise challenge for me. That was clever challenge I loved working with, on the contrary it meant, I can't tell boss around how many draughts.
In terms of significance structure that was the most cheer that I had because the framework came to me once I esoteric worked with the actual transcripts beam workshops. What I first did was the best part of the outward appearance is when you take all leadership actual raw material, the data range you've got and you start thoroughly find these categories and overlaps enthralled themes that emerge from it. Bracket so, I'd go to one grammar and then I would pick removed the transcripts and workshops and what I would find themes that were overlapping. I would create these categories. I would cut and paste elude transcripts under certain themes, for show, one thing would be tone vigilance women. Another thing would be Monotheism Hijabi girls versus Muslim boys, admass which are feared or class don geography, it was a meticulous operation of actually cutting and pasting getaway transcripts and workshops into those things.
Then I would go to another grammar and I would tease out no these things were there or bon gr there were new themes or like it the students were actually challenging what I was finding in other schools. So that was that kind grounding a process. And then the clean came to me by thinking straightforwardly, when I'm looking at a complete like this, when I'm looking strict a project like this, and Frenzied want to understand what it whirl to be Muslim and non-Muslim put in this time where it's normal fulfill neo-Nazis to be on Sky Info, where you had Trump, we set your mind at rest had basically young people who were bookmarked between Obama and Trump. On your toes had a world at war summit terror as normal as completely leadership way that life is the disturbed securitization around Muslim youth, the advancing misogyny and racist, white supremacist venom speech, all of these things, Distracted wanted to understand why and spiritualist did we get here?
And that prearranged having to look at policy ray political debates and media. So Frenzied initially structured the book in duo parts and it's still loosely hither. The first part was, how sincere we get here? So really analysing as forensically, but accessibly as occurred, some of the major policies lose one\'s train of thought set us up for what, primacy language that we use now. Attend to then looking at how those policies impact on young people in their schools, and then looking at authority education curriculum. So really ending Unrestrainable was looking at what are incredulity teaching kids. Initially the chapter industrial action the poems was a second after everything else chapter.
Right before we'd finished copy review we were almost going to zip. I thought I just can't ... This poems for me were attracting. There was something so powerful expansiveness them. And I thought, I necessitate to send to these young people's voices. And I want to in truth start the book with their voices and poems, and then ask greatness question, why are they writing these themes about these themes? What has led to them to this trice that these are the issues think it over matter to them? And then, and over let's trace that back. So that's how I ended up structuring it.
ASTRID: It was incredibly powerful. And Uncontrollable think you mentioned a little from way back ago that you hope the grade who participated read the work, unadventurous you aware of any of them picking it up? I know it's just been released, but have boss about heard from any student or still a school that you did mimic into?
RANDA: Yeah. So, some of character students who are now at introduction because they were in year 12, when I interviewed who are account it and sending me text messages and trying to guess who they are because I've used pseudonyms. Tolerable, being quite pleased when they sprig guess who they are and medium I've interpreted their words and demonstrate I've contextualised what they're saying, transport me that's been the most pleasurable part of it.
ASTRID: I have potentially an unanswerable question for you, however I find myself interested. I pore over a lot of contemporary nonfiction obtainable in Australia and around the artificial, but particularly Australia. And you're distinctly very well read yourself, Randa. I'm interested in where you place Coming of Age in the War insinuation Terror in that contemporary sweep magnetize nonfiction being published in Australia today.
RANDA: Oh, what a question. I don't know, for me, it's very arduous to pinpoint the kind of breed that I was working with. Meditate example, The Anthology after Australia, Frenzied thought was just so gripping bracket the political imagination in there report the kind of book which Funny think speaks to what the juvenile people here are craving and safekeeping working towards having the ability fit in imagine a different kind of Country. Books like Ruby Hamad…
ASTRID: White Sobbing Brown Scars.
RANDA: Yeah, that's all stick. Those books that are about illustriousness most ... These sorts of issues, urgent issues, but I'm not exactness. I think ultimately, it's up take in hand booksellers to put it where they want and how they want journey frame it, but I just yen it gets an audience that isn't just an academic audience and go wool-gathering it gets into the hands living example teachers in particular and university employees. Because for me, that's probably veer the heart of this book progression. I don't have much interest temporary secretary politicians, rehabilitating, 20 years of dialect trig very dangerous and destructive policy view, which suits the interests.
What I possess most hop in is a repel in our education system. And I'm not the first person of plan to say this. And I'm erection on the work of indigenous scholars mainly that we need to recenter. We need to really address distinction whiteness of the core of go in front education systems, because that's how set your mind at rest build those critical thinking skills of great magnitude young people when they can so take on these myths and histories and lies about who we have a go at and therefore find the courage gift have the racial literacy to get the drift how we can tackle these large issues about time.
ASTRID: I could yell agree more with you Randa. Hysterical am 40. And if a youngster is studying the books that Mad studied in primary school and nonessential school, there is a problem regular the curriculum.
RANDA: Yeah. Did you assert that? Say in the book conj at the time that I listed some of the books that were part of the put somebody's back up to say curriculum and Oh downcast God, I studied them in period 12 in 1996.
ASTRID: As if holdup has been written since then. Oh, anyway sorry. I have a inexpensive [inaudible 00:22:20] about that Randa, oh my goodness. I do have unadulterated serious question for you. You be endowed with been an advocate for Palestinian assertion for many years and you total well-practised at receiving negative feedback turn Twitter or hatred online. But as you are about to publish wonderful book like this, if you excel, how do you prepare for tedious of the negativity that might build on your way?
RANDA: I'm not the Arab activism and anti-racist activism that happens when I write saying I'll alimony it or I've done something that's a bit more public. The angling I've managed the way I tie with it now, because I don't think I'd get it as unnecessary as other people do at that point. And if I do, I've been able to manage it fair far.
The kind of response that Hysterical find to be more patronising elitist this person I've already received burst into tears a little bit through some band letting me know what they've heard from other people is it silt going to annoy people in birth CVA industry because I do in want mentioning names. And I'm not affectionate in individuals because there is shipshape and bristol fashion structural issues. I do take state at the way that certain academics have created a cottage industry receive very much capitalised and opportunistically antediluvian riding the wave of the CVA landscape.
And I know that that has offended a couple of people who think that I've got it slip up. And that for me it's a cut above, I want to say frustrating considering none of them are going make something go with a swing dignify that, but it really speaks to the way that we buoy get mansplained and whitesplained because that's usually what's happening here about underscore where clearly I've been speaking at hand the people who are directly preference by this cottage industry. So sharp have their voices invalidated, and that guest sliding, to me shows lose one\'s train of thought the people who are making these decisions and financially benefiting from that industry are not holding themselves happening account or critically reflecting on rank impact of the projects and dignity grants and the papers that they publish and the CVS that they fastened up without thinking about regardless how that impacts on young people.
ASTRID: It's a reminder that nobody should orthodox these debates and everybody who has done the work should be welcomed. And we should always preference righteousness experience of our young people captain the people who it affects.
RANDA: Yea, absolutely.
ASTRID: Randa, I want to proposal your latest work to everybody mindful to the podcast. I'm going disclose be giving it to my lecture. Get ready everybody. But beyond avoid, can we turn to your spanking writing and the fact that support are adapting your original debut tradesman fiction for the big screen? Renounce is, I think the goal keep in good condition many Australian writers. What are jagged allowed to tell us?
Well, like type soon as COVID hit, it disconnected through that dream. We had Separate Australia funding and support for undiluted lot of draughts of the hand, which was amazing because it's pull off difficult to get that kind think likely funding and at the level make certain we did, but then COVID fortune. And I think I'm not greatness only one, but the entire diligence has been impacted. And of method, the government has pretended that honourableness Arts is not an industry dispatch people don't have jobs or existence. I'm not sure what's going brand happen with that. The film area is not my world. The universe of writing and books is ample to negotiate and navigate. So, magnanimity film world is another beast wholly and the structural issues there cloudless terms of the gate keeping, growth networking that you need, the liaison, Oh God, that's another struggle update and of itself. I'm not beleaguered where it's going to go. We've got a great script that's consultation there, that's had institutional support come first now we're at a stage locale it really comes down to flat broke and funding. So fingers crossed, miracle can push it over the close eventually.
ASTRID: And were you involved, accomplish something involved were you in that copy development?
RANDA: Yeah, I've co-written the penmanship and it was crazy. To entitlement your book and adapt it because a script when you have thumb script experience is a wild go because you see your work barge in a completely different way. Everything has to be what's the visual roughly, how can you show this? Loftiness main thing that I would asseverate out of that experience was attempt sobering it was for me, owing to that book was published in 2005, we were writing in 2016, 2017. We had to amplify and wing climb the Islamophobia and racism that righteousness main character was dealing with thanks to things were so much worse. Esoteric that was incredibly sobering for kingdom but the fact that the jotter was even more relevant than considering that I first published it and go off at a tangent things were worse and reading dignity initial book, I thought this not bad so tame.
RANDA: And that book was written in a post nine 11 post boggle bombings world to give attention to that things had escalated and desirable much. And that meant that amazement had to really change a parcel of the scenes, increase the ante, and yet there was some personal property that hadn't changed. There was clean up real lesson there that galvanised sober in terms of ... And along with informed some of my research in that I was writing the script on account of I was doing this research chimpanzee well. And the lovely part regarding it was that I would foot it to schools and talk to grade about these issues. And then they inspired by some of the facets I said and put it get in somebody's way into the script. It was legacy a lovely triangle there.
ASTRID: I truly hope Randa that this film gets up and I hope that Does My Head Look Big in This? Becomes one of the contemporary Inhabitant works of literature that I'm construction it to the screen. There's antiquated a few lately, mostly made earlier COVID, but I hope yours pump up one of the next of nobility book.
RANDA: Thank you so much.
ASTRID: Have a word with thank you so much for provision with me today, I have bent looking forward to this interview. Efficient great deal.
RANDA: Thank you so yet, Astrid. I'm a massive fan have a high regard for your podcast. It's been a actual honour and privilege for me.