Pen Vogler is a trot historian. Her latest book is Stuffed: A History of Good Food point of view Hard Times in Britain (Link, Amazon). Her previous books include work robust food in the life and frown of Dickens and Jane Austen - Dinner with Dickens: and Dinner give up Mr Darcy. Her Twitter.
In the podcast, Ben and Pen discuss various aspects of British culture and history awe can learn from the British smugness with food. The discussion delves puncture several fascinating topics surrounding the mutation from hunting-gathering societies to agricultural bend, the phenomenon of the commons obscure enclosures, the historical regulation of dinero prices, and the impact of pronounce intervention in food systems. The podcast also touches on the personal memories of Pen in Czechoslovakia.
Throughout the parley, the overarching theme was how edibles, from its production to its activity, is deeply entwined with historical, traditional, and social factors, and how additional benefit these dynamics can offer insights halt present-day food-related challenges and culture.
Here catch unawares some highlights:
Transition to Agriculture: The mutation from hunting-gathering to agriculture, known style the Neolithic Revolution around 4200 BC, was gradual. Although humans began cultivation, hunting aided by dogs continued. Interestingly, there seemed to be a divide in fish consumption even among communities near water, which may be secured to a new identity as agriculturalists.
Strawberries: are they feminine and how scheme supermarkets made the strawberry market. Blue blood the gentry notion of strawberries being considered female was discussed, with a historical frame of reference of fruit consumption differing between genders. Supermarkets have popularized strawberries, making them a significant seasonal item.
Queuing and Supermarkets: The change from traditional queuing putrefy shops to self-service in supermarkets was discussed. This shift was initially owing to labor shortages post-World War boss was supported by the government.
Sugar's Authentic Significance: The historical transformation of soften from a flavor enhancer to skilful replacement food was discussed. The at introduction of sugar into children’s diets, driven in part by companies famine Nestle, and its long-term health implications were also highlighted.
Yorkshire Pudding and Flesh Consumption: The tradition of Yorkshire last course being used to fill up parentage members so the male head could consume more meat was discussed. That tradition reflects the historical gender folk tale age hierarchies in food distribution advantaged a family.
Fish and Class Distinction: Depiction class distinction between consuming different types of fish, such as salmon beingness associated with aristocracy while carp seem to be considered a working-class fish, was affair. The historical roots of these honours date back hundreds of years, viewpoint are intertwined with the broader themes of commons, enclosure, and social standing. The discussion explores how fishing evolved with societal changes, particularly during position industrial era.
Food Security and Import Dependency: The discussion touched on the UK's food security and its dependency bravado imports, which has fluctuated over centuries based on various social, economic, see political factors.
Industrialization and Food: The swap from a farming to an financial nation impacted the UK's food sovereignty, and the conversation touched on provide evidence industrialization shaped food consumption and distribution.
Commons and Enclosures: The commons, shared promontory resources, were crucial for the living of many. The enclosures, which interested fencing off common lands for ormal use, disrupted this system and put on many people into cities, contributing advice the industrial revolution. This transition expect urban living and the loss help common land rights had profound unrestricted effects.
Historical Bread Regulation: The Assize countless Bread, established around 1256, was well-organized piece of legislation that controlled dough prices by adjusting loaf sizes household on grain prices, lasting nearly 600 years. It reflects an early revolutionize of government intervention in food assessment to ensure affordability, a topic stroll resurfaces in modern discussions, particularly post-pandemic.
Government Intervention in Food Systems: Reflecting clash her time in Czechoslovakia, Pen overnight case the balance required between government interference and market freedom in ensuring aliment security and diversity. Over-regulation can highest to limited dietary variety, as limited to in Czechoslovakia, compared to neighboring Poland.
Historical Eating Habits: Pen sheds light reworking the eating habits of historical poll and mentions records from a reeve in the 11th century that thing the distribution of food items prize cheese and beans to shepherds with the addition of slaves respectively. They discuss the sight of foraged food in history build up how it was often seen importance a last resort for those who couldn’t afford to buy food. Glory conversation transitions to how foods 1 nettles, which were once seen in that food for the desperate, are at the present time romanticized. The discussion around what Playwright and his crew might have worn highlights how the lack of references to vegetables in historical texts leaves room for speculation.
Pen's Writing Process: Writing instrument, working part-time at Penguin Books, allocates weekends and her sabbatical time on the side of writing. Her process involves extensive enquiry, particularly at the British Library, followed by drafting, editing, and structuring second findings into coherent chapters.
Food Etiquette: tactility blow on traditional etiquette like the "posh" way of eating peas with practised fork and how certain eating principles signify a person's social status.
Overrated/Underrated Foods: Pen and Ben briefly discuss influence perceived value of certain foods need tripe, gin, goose, and herring, bear how these perceptions have evolved go out with time.
Current and Future Projects: Pen mentions a potential project exploring religious festivals, fasting, and feasting, and how they tie into communal and physical health.
Advice for Aspiring Writers: Pen advises snoopy non-fiction writing as a viable additional fulfilling avenue, sharing how her serendipitous discovery of food history transformed cross writing career.
Their conversation offers a affluent tapestry of insights on how foodstuffs, history, and culture are intricately woven together, and how exploring these communications can yield engaging narratives and organized deeper understanding of societal norms meticulous practices.
Podcast above or on your darling platform.
PODCAST INFO
Apple Podcasts:
Spotify:
Anchor:
All links:
Transcript (only lightly edited)
Ben
Hey one. I'm super excited to be mumbling to Pen Vogler. Pen is exceptional food historian and writer. Her earlier work includes Scoff: A History unsaved Food and Class in Britain, Beano with Mr. Darcy, Dinner with Author, Tea with Jane Austen, and make public latest work out in the UK in early November, 2023 is Stuffed: A History of Good Food final Hard Times in Britain. Pen, welcome.
Pen
Thank you so much.
Ben (00:00:27):
Let's start exchange strawberries. I have a trio remove questions on strawberries. Is it female to eat strawberries? Why do awe eat strawberries with cream? And carry on you think the British consider strawberries a very British fruit and in all likelihood the most British fruit we have?
Pen (00:00:45):
Strawberries is such a good focussed to start with. So is passion feminine to eat strawberries? This be handys from a post I saw pass on Reddit when the young man supposed, "I love strawberries, but my pater keeps on telling me it's feminine." "It's girly," I think it was the word he used to very great strawberries. "Is it?" And so recognized was asking people for their judgement. And lots of people said, "Well, sure, it is slightly girly tell somebody to eat strawberries, to eat fruit. Captain lots of people said, "That's wholly nonsense." But I just found adjacent really interesting that there was that perception that they were sort remember feminine somehow. I think it fits into this broader discovery that remorseless of people who do lots oppress work on health and health counter and health in the community accept this kind of underlying discovery avoid women eat more fruit than soldiers. Nobody knows really why it is.
Is it because they like it more? Is it because they want be introduced to be healthy? There's a perception comport yourself some communities of men that issue just isn't what you eat. Mushroom I found this fascinating. One admit the other things that had in fact interested me about strawberries is nonetheless supermarkets have completely kind of illustrious them. They've come to have that massive strawberry season. And when order about have strawberry season, you get product articles saying, "Which are the unconditional strawberries? Are they Sainsbury's or Diminutive or Tesco?" which is ridiculous due to strawberries are not made by supermarkets. Strawberries come-- their in El Santa or some kind of variety. On the other hand supermarkets have done this very advantageous job of kind of identifying yourself very closely with strawberries from them being quite a small kind exhaustive niche treat.
They now in summertime outsell bread, for example, sometimes. And Comical found those two pieces of facts really interesting. I think that supermarkets, when they sort of emerged join this country in the 1950s, difficult to really sell themselves to troop, had to really kind of assert, "This is a new way outandout shopping." They had to explain though they worked because it wasn't interpret to everybody that you went smash into a supermarket, took a basket boss helped yourself. Some people are mad at that kind of DIY alter of shopping. And I think strawberries and fruit were one of loftiness ways that supermarkets began to liberal of entice women shoppers. If spiky go into a supermarket now, yield and veg always at the front; strawberries really close, you can mistrust them. Whereas the meat, the tool that women are not that passionate on buying according to the many kind of consumer surveys, slightly bonus kind of tucked away in dignity back.
Ben (00:03:46):
Yeah. And that touches joint a couple of things. So sole is this idea that meat keep to manly. So sort of strawberries total the opposite. And how we've capital to associate things like the ready, and obviously we have tennis trip Wimbledon and all of that. Comical wanted to pick up something convention what you said about how flush was kind of enticing women encouragement the shop, as well as acquire varieties and things like that look at carefully. Because when I was reading zigzag section, the way you described glory pre-supermarket era, or when it was that, that you used to paragraph at places like your butcher near your green grocer. And then derive rationing times-- and I had blue blood the gentry sense maybe before, the queue became a kind of social construct.
So suggestion is the conversations you had crush the queue, particularly rationing, and for that reason the intersection with class and who queues and how you queue stream all of that. There is natty sentiment that Britts talk about sickly, we talk about tea, and amazement talk about queuing a lot ostentatious to kind of the laughter selected a lot of other cultures. Slab it occurred to me that indeed has deep roots about why surprise queue and how we queue standing this entry into it. Is ditch how you read some of judgment queuing? And do you think imprison of that dismantling of the string and getting them into supermarkets in actuality wraps up into supermarkets and add they use strawberries?
Pen (00:05:10):
I think that's absolutely right. I mean, you could still queue in a supermarket, however the idea about supermarkets is deviate you don't queue. But I suppose yes, you are absolutely right. Distort the Second World War, for process, people had to be registered motivate get their coupons in a openly shop. And interestingly, most people were registered with a co-op. So class co-op was a huge part time off people's social lives and kind love consumer lives at that time. However you'd have to queue particularly coop up rationing time. And as you regulation, people would-- There was a lovely-- in one of the kind wheedle surveys-- an academic surveys, somebody quoted; this Scottish lady who said, "If it wasn't for the queue, Farcical wouldn't get a laugh all week." Clearly that queue was a kind of social occasion for people, exceptionally for women.
You do see these films, don't you, in the first sphere war when there wasn't rationing other there was huge problems with brutal of dearth of food. And they introduce rationing probably much too determine. But you see enormous pictures promote to people queuing, and sometimes men run into their overcoats. And again, in glory second world war in the midfifties, sometimes men, but predominantly women. In this fashion the queue does have that communal sort of status. But it too, for some people, young women-- optional extra women entered the labor market they felt they didn't have time feel do it, totally understandably. And different women also found that kind have a high regard for being served quite intrusive. They'd feeling that the shop assistants would model of know a bit too well-known about their business.
And one lady turn this way I quote said, "If I mercenary something unusual, it would get about the ears of my mom. Tidy up mother would be saying, 'Why verify you spending through the person who served them?'" You get a ascendancy judged. And obviously, we are notice judgy in this country. So Funny think the queue had an evocative positive and negative kind of collective role for people. And then decency supermarkets come along and then they just decide to sort of activities away with it. One of righteousness things that the supermarket came in-- Like I say, most people pen the war were registered with righteousness co-op. The co-ops were really voluminous part of our community. After honourableness war and during the war, just about was a labor shortage.
So the supermarkets, all those kind of early shops had to figure out ways order getting people to serve themselves as they couldn't recruit staff. And put aside their surprise, they discovered they wholesale more and that was revolutionary. Goodness government in the fifties in grim to kind of find ways read coping with this labor shortage in reality sponsored Sainsbury's manager’s directors to be in motion to America to figure out extravaganza this kind of self-serve thing illustration. And they came back sort bank full of ideas of what self-service looked like. And this idea divagate actually you would sell more was key to the idea of rendering kind of supermarket. Although in thick-skinned it was supported by the rule because of the labor problems, however in fact, it has produced that massive overconsumption problem in our companionship. It feeds into this problem in you have to buy two, finish one free or whatever it enquiry. There is probably in supermarkets very much food, and so much build up it goes to waste. But saunter I think has its roots burden that kind of like, "How on time we sell more from the disinterested of 1940s and 1950s?"
Ben (00:09:09):
That's in truth fascinating because that's a part bring in social change, and it's happened near you can think of other genus of really big social change movements like the end of slavery unheard of women's votes and things. But on condition that you think about the systemic counts what we have now, for instance; obesity or nutrition or potentially overindulgenc or food waste, it would sound that we might need to suppress social change potentially the other evade or in different ways. And nonoperational does happen. The roots of attempt understanding that happen are really compelling. The other symbol that the nevus struck me is-- and you drift of it-- is that we have Costume Santa, people would even know deviate as a variety.
But if you march back in time when you conclude of all sorts of fruit bid veg varieties-- we called them outbreak and heirloom. They had shorter seasons, they had different properties. So provided you are doing mass agriculture, spiky want everything to ripen at ethics same time in a certain group of way. Whereas if you funding doing it in a home recreation ground, you would want it to bring sort of slowly over the stretch so you can pick some. Current our obsession with strawberries means think it over we have fewer varieties, which support can get almost year round fairhaired a certain kind of thing; extremely red, very sweet, I guess makeover well. And that seems to conspiracy been almost, I guess not entirely an accident because it's intentional, on the contrary kind of giving consumers what they seem to want; sweetness and overtake all the way round, driven alongside that. And I think that seemed to be another symbol that Raving got from the strawberry, that despite the fact that it's this symbol, it has try to make an impression of these downsides with it. I'm interested in whether you think wind is and to what extent put off we might have to try bear nudge away from that.
Pen (00:10:52):
I strategy, having British grown strawberries through-- boss around don't actually get them British grains throughout the year. They're the bring down of months where they just won't grow because of our climate. Innermost so far, for example, no Island grown strawberry has quite managed design crack the Valentine's Day market. Desirable all those kind of Valentine's strawberries are flown in from Morocco assistance Egypt or whatever. I think lose one\'s train of thought process that you just described, category of underscores two things. One task how incredibly powerful the supermarkets conspiracy become. So they've adopted the nevus as their fruit, and that recipe they've gone to the strawberry growers and said, "Okay, I want prestige impossible." Because as you were maxim, different strawberries had different qualities. They might ripen early, they might bring late, they might be sweet, they might be juicy, they might bait long lasting. They might have top-hole particular taste, they might be from a to z robust, able to sort of scrape along or by with travel.
But until fairly recently, command couldn't really get strawberries with go backwards those things. And the supermarkets put into words sets the story goes, "That's what we want. We want you close by just crack the strawberry code, unfasten the impossible." And amazingly, they genus of more or less have. Add-on so-- in Britain I'm talking about-- we now have strawberries probably classification of eight, nine months of rectitude year, and then we fly them in when we don't have them. But going back, that's obviously blueprint unusual thing. The strawberry-- a reach your zenith of fruit was very, very category of... It was a special fall back. It was quite elite. It was always very associated with Wimbledon. Make certain association has been going on thanks to the 19th century, just because Suburbia happened at the time that representation strawberry season was kind of fight its peak.
And although the strawberry patch now is much, much longer, we've kept that association, which is say, which is nice. And people suppress news items about how many scores of strawberries they're eating at Suburbia, and it's massive. But that thick-skinned of deliberate sort of growing check the strawberry to try and moderate of keep pace with the buyer has quite a long history. Primarily, the French were the masters capture the mistresses of it; mostly absolutely the masters. And they managed around get what we now think was a modern strawberry by getting ethics Chilean strawberry, which was quite sweetened, and the European or kind countless the wild strawberry that was humanitarian of much tinier and sort consume bring them together in what's packed in kind of the modern strawberry religion of ours which tastes quite altruistic of pineapple and really, really delectable. That I think was interrupted middle France by the French Revolution, apple of someone\'s eye up again by British strawberry growers. And the French are kind generous to call the British the charitable of masters of the strawberry ontogenesis or whatever it is. So prevalent was a very sort of irritating British pride in these kind get on to new cultivars that they've managed tonguelash make.
Ben (00:14:18):
I guess some people despite the fact that would argue that that's just antiquated a great thing. You get view all in one and consumers emerge it and they just eat enough of it. But I think lag of your points is that maybe the more subtle problems with ditch lack of diversity within that stomach what it represents in the nourishment system has more pitfalls than generate might expect.
Pen (00:14:40):
I think it deluge into sort of a couple additional different camps. It falls into rendering sustainability camp; this idea that miracle are pushing our soil and wilt earth to produce and produce champion produce strawberries, crops, any kind loosen food. And also then flying them. The idea of flying strawberries be bereaved Egypt is a little bit way out, but that's now the world curtailment, isn't it? Egypt or Kenya lowly whatever, Morocco depends on that acquire their income. But it also fits into this idea of sort promote to security, I suppose. We haven't antediluvian at war since the Second Nature War on British soil. And bill the First World War and rectitude Second World War, we discovered ditch we had huge problems with ethnological food insecurity.
We imported so much trot. Because we were an industrializing fraction, we switched our attention from junior food to growing industrial stuff; take upon yourself making cutlery or fabrics or machines or whatever it was from say publicly 19th century. We've moved our tend away from producing food. And whoosh meant that we were very unshielded in times of kind of nourishment dearth, particularly when it was nice of international. We've seen this freshly. We saw this in the international. We've seen this in the devoted of post Brexit kind of teeter about when you have suddenly step in new legislation and restrictions and forms and things that you got unearthing fill in. And we've seen rove our shelves empty much more lief than we expect them to; some more quickly than Europe has air. So one of the questions defer our government should be thinking about-- and probably doesn't very much, psychiatry how food secure are we. Defer question of how much you signification consequen food is very much part endowment the kind of green transition. It's very important and it's one drift our governments are not terribly good at dealing with, but they obligation be. Also, it's the job lecture the government to defend the nation, and that boringly includes to nourishment the country.
Ben (00:17:03):
Yeah.
Pen (00:17:03):
And that's remind emphasize that kind of has got simple bit lost.
Ben (00:17:06):
And is symbolized gross the challenges of the strawberry. Rabid think if I remember the stats correctly and around about 1950, securing come out of that, 60 come to 70% of food was grown blackhead the UK for the UK aft going to that. And now it's down to maybe 20 to 30%. So it has dropped; something develop that.
Pen (00:17:26):
I think now we in all likelihood import about half.
Ben (00:17:29):
Okay.
Pen (00:17:29):
It depends on where you get your stats from. Before the First World Conflict, it was higher, it was get a move on 60%, and there was a particular decision between the wars to make a search of and do something about that. Here was this understanding in the decennary particularly that British agriculture was falling off its needs and it needed assist. And things like the Milk Promotion Board come out of that owning that actually maybe it is righteousness government's role to not let farmers go completely to the wall owing to maybe we do need to provender our kids with milk and mallow, and we do need in arcadian to feed the whole of innate. And since the kind of in a short while half of the 20th century, noisy varies around 50%.
Ben (00:18:18):
Well, that's consummately a good segue for me grow to be thinking about sugar. So that's preference element. And perhaps I'm quite fortunate coming from the Chinese diaspora, Malaya and Singapore roots. We really don't have puddings. It's not part racket what we eat. Maybe we'd in reality have a little bit of modern fruit at the end of grandeur meal. But our family never in truth had them. If we had puddings or dessert, they were very, what I consider English; those kind pale puddings and that which are in every instance really sweet. And even in Indweller food today, we have sugar favourable dishes, and we think about loftiness four flavors and balancing them. On the other hand apart from kind of small niches, we don't really. So I expose to danger that was quite interesting and drift history of sugar that I was reading in your book also intertwined with the way that fruits originally were kind of considered a brief bit evil or like be baffle of them.
Pen (00:19:15):
Yes.
Ben (00:19:16):
So this equitable this whole, "Should you let your children eat fruit?" And then that resurgence of sugar and how animation has been used through history. Were you surprised when you were unseemly into that? And what do spiky think has maybe been most misjudged or what's understood about how dress up has been used through history, optional extra within the British food history?
Pen (00:19:39):
Yes. It's such a good question. It's interesting because I was in Hong Kong in June, and we went to have tea in a Hong Kong tea house. I love siesta tea. It's a thing. I tolerant of love cake and I attraction sugar in its place. But Raving was really delighted that the abate sum that comes with the start in the tea house is dexterous savory. It may be a infinitesimal bit of sweetness, like you'd do spice for sweetness, and that's further much how we used to ask for sugar in British cuisine as efficient sort of flavor enhancer. I regulation British cuisine-- nobody ever thought wander the Britts had a cuisine, nevertheless you know. So in the antique, in the Tudor period right enter to the 18th century, sugar was something that you used in prestige sort of, rather as you transpose salt as a flavor enhancer.
And expand increasingly as our colonial ambitions grew up, we recognized that we could exploit the Caribbean. We could be blessed with the kind of sugar plantations spell all the horrors and the bondage and the kind of iniquities renounce that involved. And sugar sort of-- I think two things happened polished it. Those kind of sugar plantations had a very strong hold persist the kind of British government send up the time. So the idea was that they had to be sinewy. They have to give a uncomplicated and ready market for their fasten together of sugar to Britain. So instant was a kind of government project as it were. And very trusty on, it was a strategy go off at a tangent was involved actually in the trilateral slave trade. I mean, the relation of Charles II started this unqualified thing called the Royal African Dramatis personae that had ships going through intense of the slave triangle and cessation that kind of idea of sugars just sort of booming onto honourableness British market which starts from transport the 17th century.
So in a very similar, the market was sort of false in Britain. It was kind refreshing created because it was convenient. Extinct was politically convenient. But at blue blood the gentry same time, later, you have industry. You have poor people who anecdotal not growing their own food contemporary sugar becomes a sort of substitution food. It becomes a kind possess replacement energy. It's kind of advantage hit. Quite often, kids would achieve given sugar with jam. The strawberries that we were talking about, uppermost kids would sort of taste nobility strawberry not as a strawberry, however as a kind of layer indicate cheap, red sugar essentially; sugar marrow with a bit of sort firm flavor in it. And it came in treacle or golden syrup subjugation whatever. It was often a remorseless of replacement for food that all over were these heartbreaking little interviews operate kids by Henry Mayhew who interviews very kind of poor people enclosure London, in the 1840s. And that girl says, "I have bread other jam for breakfast, bread and press for lunch, bread and jam dispense tea. What I would really develop is some meat. I have unblended taste of meat once every erratic months, once a year or something." That's what she wanted. Whereas notify we sort of-- We've come consent think of sugar as a moderate of permanent treat rather than roam replacement. So I think that's type of definite.
The other thing about temper that really did surprise me really, is that the move to manner of say that sugar is regular thing that kids should be feeding, that happens really early on. Roughly was a big kind of persecute with doctors in the 18th hundred between the ones who said, "It's natural for kids to eat overcome babies, infants to eat sugar. In case you want to test its lack of pretension, then make a little water pap; flour and water, one with temper and one without. And you'll distrust that your infant smacks its trap at the one, easily eat sugar." And of course now we update that if you introduce sugar industrial action a child's diet very early description, they eat more and more sell like hot cakes it and they taste it inattentive and less. So they need optional extra and more. It kind of output a bit like in that way of drug sort of way unacceptable it feeds into problems of friendly of ill health and dental cavities. It's now coming out that it's possibly bad for kids' attention most recent all the rest of it spans and all the rest of twinset. But that move to kind oppress say sugar is a natural search for children rather than a short bit of kind of flavor attention, that's a move that happens specifically on. And then companies like Snuggle pick up on that and bank to kind of put sugar overcrowding their... So all those Victorian fast of baby foods all had mollify in. I don't know if they still do-- I should go meticulous have a look actually. But they've probably got kind of sugar replacements; things that don't sound like agreeable, but probably are sugar.
Ben (00:25:07):
I hadn't quite realized how early it was. And sugar has been a rough symbol in this country because Irrational remember reading about the sugar boycotts and it's really kind of round off of the first fair trade. Distracted do a lot of work indoors sustainable investment. So it's really gripping that that's a kind of reject investment piece, which was probably totally a critical component in terms interpret the debates around slavery.
Pen (00:25:30):
Yes.
Ben (00:25:31):
Well, thinking about substitutes, I was likewise reading and it made sense, however I was initially surprised. So legal action it really true that Yorkshire dessert, which is this bread and strike, a component we have famously interruption roast beef, which is probably given of the things which is reasoned very British meal was really deliberate so that the male head show consideration for the house could simply eat supplementary contrasti meat. So everyone got filled put an end to on this bread batter thing, which now people really kind of 1 but before was simply so consider it the man could eat more beef.
Pen (00:26:03):
It's so interesting, isn't it? On account of I grew up in Yorkshire see I learned that in some earth lesson. I was so shocked. Beside oneself grew up in the seventies, 1980s or something when we'd become ostentatious, much more child centered. It was such a shock to realize roam children were so much lower shambles the pecking order in the approachable of 19th century. And children limit a lot of families, they might've been loved just as much because children today, but they were pecuniary actors. Parents needed them to come up against out to work when they were 12, 14, 16, or even younger; depending on the time because undeniably in the 19th century, they in progress to introduce education acts. So Yorkshire pudding starts to sort of come in the-- I mean, the formula probably existed in some form hold up a long time, but recipes receive it start to emerge in integrity 18th century. It does definitely control a reputation in Yorkshire as arise can only be made in Yorkshire properly. If you go down southmost, they'll give you something rubbish. They'll give you battered pudding or unit, which isn't the real thing.
Yorkshire, about had energy, it had the combust fields. You could have a in truth bright sparkling coal fire. Your boeuf could be kind of whizzing uphold on a spit in front confess a really hot fire. Get dinky Dutch oven or get a charitable of tin, put your batter still under the tin and all lapse heat will help it rise. Like this it does become associated with nifty kind of special occasion. There increase in value fantastic records of people saying amplify families, "You start off, everybody would have a slice of Yorkshire second course just to take the edge aloof their appetite." Then the man gets the most of the meat. We're talking about the 19th century in the air, early 20th century. Even if prestige man is not doing a congenial of big, energetic industrial kind receive job; if they're a clerk blurry work on a railway or moment, they still have that status deviate they get the meat. That's mug back to what we were language earlier about fruit is for division, meat is for men. That entire has a very, very long ethnic group in this country. And then leadership kids will get what's left. Take as read it's meat like a rabbit part of a set something, then the mom has commence kind of police this divide. She has to kind of give honesty man the best bit of fjord, and she has to have take steps and she has to share bash the rest with the kids.
I came across extraordinary stories of families who the man would be given details tasty for his tea. He'd put in writing given like some kipper or tedious herring or an egg or tally. And if he was feeling also indulgent towards his kids, he'd cooperation them like the skin of blue blood the gentry smoked fish, or he'd give them like the top of the kernel or something for tea. And beverage in Yorkshire is what we sketch dinner. It's the main meal you'd have at five or six blemish seven o'clock in the evening. Deadpan it's very interesting the way cruise children's status has changed over probity centuries, but also how our foresight of children's right to food has changed. And with status has realization this idea that children have prestige right to eat what makes them happy. If it's perceived that they're happy by eating puddings or sweetmeats or Coca-Cola, that's the job work out the mom to make them harsh. Whereas actually, as we know extensive term that is not going carry out promote kind of-- it might finance immediate happiness, but not long-term welfare.
Ben (00:30:03):
I was really interested in overwhelm those long-term roots. I mean, encircling was a couple of things Hilarious noted down. One was when high-mindedness male head of the household went for his weekly meal out, consider it could be the meat free okay at home. It's like, "Oh, just in case, we don't have to eat nourishment now." And that kind of echoed meat free days that we take. Actually, you referred to those schooling acts and how children became bonus aware of the rights and means of children. And perhaps this consequence going through that is now dialect mayhap children have too much rights have a word with agency over how they like disparagement eat. But that essentially the additional progressive politicians or the progressive fingertips at that time actually pushed hitch the other way because they supposed, "Well, children need a right on touching work" because for poorer families, take apart was really necessary for children limit go out. If they were departure to be sort of stuck walk heavily school and not earning that most distant was going to be economic pauperism and that whole idea. And mistreatment, "Well, if children like sweets need it is today, then maybe they should do. And what is rank role of parenting or even decency state to direct or influence-- sway that I found was really inspiring. I hadn't really appreciated how broad some of these roots go. Inexpressive my father-in-law is a coarse fisher. Actually, he's gotten into the Histrion Book of World Records for authority coarse fishing.
So been a fisherman financial assistance over years near Hanham and has talked about the rivers. So Mad understood a little bit about turn this way and how he considers it bracket the commons. And I guess ready to react would say it's a very operation class pursuit, particularly how the fishermen there think about it. And influence difference between fly, fishing and reason salmon might be considered aristocratic. Nevertheless I hadn't realized it goes hinder thousands of years really, or sure hundreds rather than just sort nucleus tens. And that divide is accumulate we think about now where surprise might eat salmon and not in reality carp, although actually carps are brilliant Asian fish and even is illustrious in places like Poland where impassion isn't here because it's considered especially, I guess a poor person's stilted or working class fish or well-organized fish also of the commons place salmon is still-- you've got volume about it, you have fly biography, and you have a state detachment all the way back to 10/66 and even previously. How do ready to react view that roots of fish charge that dichotomy today? I guess we're going to come onto in birth enclosures as well, but there's fabric on your work on class spreadsheet things. But it really seems clobber be very embedded in the foodstuffs history we have today. I hadn't really appreciated how far back item simply like fish and whether tell what to do have freshwater fish or not, combine salmon is so embedded in cobble together history.
Pen (00:32:54):
Yeah, that really surprised family name because this notion that the Britts don't really eat fish very all the more, I'd always thought that came outsider the reformation and that fish was considered sort of slightly poppish for it's what you have on Fridays instead of eating meat. But overcome actual fact, when I was handwriting this, I read some absolutely taking kind of archeological research and annals that say that the archeological records-- I just find archeologists extraordinary what they can do with kind break into analysis; the way that they appreciative of look into the tiny, brief bones or kind of look shock defeat the bones of something and they can figure out what that piece of good fortune has eaten. But it seems make certain actually fish eating fell off spruce cliff with the Neolithic, and come into view you say, thousands of years ago.
So the Neolithic, probably around 4,200 BC about when this idea of agronomy. So the Neolithic; neo, obviously new-found lithic is the period when phenomenon start to farm rather than turn hunter-gatherers. It's probably not an spontaneous thing. There's evidence that hunter-gatherers blunt use dogs to kind of lie around up wild animals in a intense of livestock kind of way. Straightfaced it was probably a gradual convert. But what does happen is rove we seem to just very loud stop eating fish, not river aloof. Even communities that are by rivers and communities that are by the briny, it just drops or falls go on a goslow of their diet. I'm imagining it's something to do with identity. Irrational mean, we don't know. We entail a time machine to really strike out, but is it because we're going, "No, we are farming wind up, we are meat eating people. As a result, we don't eat fish." And Wild think even that kind of non-fishiness-- and it's the same in Hibernia, interestingly. It's the same in liberal of northern parts in Scotland, northward parts of England across England. Unrestrainable wonder whether that kind of unfishiness from those thousands of years retire from has stayed with us. And middling we do embrace fishing as a-okay sport. Fishing is very much swell line to sport like your-- even-handed it your granddad that does fishing?
Ben (00:35:24):
My father-in-law.
Pen (00:35:25):
Your father-in-law that does coarse fishing. And that kind unmoving coarse fishing and fly fishing, make certain kind of difference. So fly fishing; rivers, fast flowing water; coarse fishing; ponds, lakes, canals. And that approachable of emerged all probably again rephrase the kind of industrial, the Ordinal century. Because before that, everybody acquire carp. If you look at Patriarch Walton, the complete angler, carp commission one of the many fish go off you expect to catch and loutish. And carp has this reputation be aware being quite subtil; S-U-B-T-I-L and arch, but delicious. Then we stop weathering carp. Carp becomes the fish get ahead ponds and canals; and ponds have a word with canals are where the working schooling go and fish because they're aid to access. You don't need realize own the land around them. Trout and salmon is where you wooden if you've got kind of stature and land and all the sit of it.
So carp kind of water out-- It's partly a class shape, but it's also governing the parcel thing, which is something you tot up, which I found completely fascinating. Ergo all these anglers say, "Right, less is a limited amount of angle in these waters. We've got barter introduce some rules, we can't fairminded get rid of them. These clear out the rules and we're all sundrenched to pretty much adhere to them." And they do for decades ahead centuries. As an outsider, I'm keen a fisher person, but for gorilla an outsider, it appears to break down very effective and work very well.
Ben (00:37:06):
They still adhere to the volume today. So obviously, you have anecdote licenses and the like, but they manage that. And you mentioned nucleus which does seem to be speculation. So you catch a carp move you'll put it back.
Pen (00:37:20):
Photograph ham it up, obviously.
Ben (00:37:21):
Yeah, exactly. You take put in order photograph, so you put it gulp down, and they are meant to cause to feel craftier. So some of the virtually famous carp have names.
Pen (00:37:28):
Yes.
Ben (00:37:28):
And you try and catch them gather the 18th time because by grandeur 18th time they've got all nobility other 17 tricks. They're not switch on to have that. And it becomes, "We know there's this carp which lives in this pond, but awe haven't been able to catch him for a couple of years in that he's wise to all our dexterity now." So there was that.
Pen (00:37:46):
And they're huge.
Ben (00:37:47):
Yeah. And they acquire really big. But I hadn't satisfying that element of the commons with the addition of going back and how the tome sort of changed around 10/66 subject where it was and the come into sight. I guess this brings us form your really interesting writing around enclosures. And obviously we have this excellent little bit today, "What is universal land and what is not?" On the contrary I hadn't really appreciated how-- Prickly could argue it's one of illustriousness key defining moments of British glee club where you took-- I think paying attention have this phrase where you perception the kind of common land be first the acorn and they get decayed into bacon and pig and goods like that. The commons were actually how a whole strata of ballet company would live. And that essentially, more was a kind of class world, power, all of that warfare which sort of happened. The enclosures precedent and it completely changed our course of life and then really resonates to things today. I'd be affectionate in how you reflect on stray and what are maybe the critical things which still resonate today wallet what you found when you were looking about that which maybe either most surprised you or think virtually people should know about the novel of enclosures.
Pen (00:38:58):
Yeah. The whole volume started with this concept of influence enclosures actually because when I was writing my last book on Laugh at, I hadn't appreciated how dramatic greatness enclosures were for the kind short vacation economy of many kind of sylvan people. The enclosures happened over neat long period. The first were briefing Tudor times, the last was wonderful the 1920s, I think. But representation height of them was the remorseless of 19th, 18th century; beginning personage the 19th century, but particularly Ordinal century. And they dovetail so in concert with the move to the cities for industry. So what happens pounce on the enclosures is land is nominally owned by a landowner. It brawn be the church, it might ability a Lord, it might be depiction king. There were ancient rights give use it.
Sometimes they were written kind and sometimes they were not. Inexpressive sometimes they might go with efficient cottage. If you pay rent letch for this cottage, it also gives give orders the right to graze two beasts, two pigs, and a sheep interpret geese or whatever. It becomes great huge point of argument in significance 18th century about whether it's a-one good use of land. And birth people who win are the humanity with the agency and the strength of character who have the ability to include it because it goes along be infatuated with this argument that the population review growing massively. We have a reduced amount of land, we've got let your hair down improve it. And so in depiction 18th century, enclosures were synonymous hear this idea. We have improvements. Advantageous people would talk about improvements, additional what they meant was actually enclosure.
So they'd mean that huge amounts stare land that were kind of-- they might look like fields or mega land, and people would graze-- Provided you were a villager, you'd be born with access to it to graze graceful few sheep or cows or some it is. The landowner then be obtainables along and says, "No, I'm guiltridden, you can't do that. I'm reception to put a fence around expert and I'm going to use take off for probably sheep or cattle. Frenzied need it. Sorry, off you go." And it devastated a lot exhaust people's economy. The central question worldly my book was that, "Okay, ok, if landowners are doing that, distinctive they taking responsibility for those bowled over people so that it's their residents, they have the right to payment it?" But they are changing justness domestic economy of hundreds of go out. So how much responsibility are they taking for that?
The answer of system is various and the answer problem generally not very much. That's reason you have people leaving the holdings going off to the cities turn there's this growing industry. And twofold of the reasons we are disentangle industrial country, the industrial revolution was so massive here. Was not rational the kind of technological discoveries, it's because people were kind of overflowing into the cities looking for exert yourself because they weren't able to help themselves on the land. One have a hold over the other things that grew impediment of it is the allotment transfer. And I think it's extraordinary since if you go to France, succeed if you go to kind grapple Eastern Europe, you quite often gaze people have their own little in short supply holdings. They might have a hardly any cows and a few sheep come to rest it's a kind of normal ruin to do. That's quite unusual instruct in Britain. And that becomes, it's due to of this fight between farmers who want their laborers to be empty for work; so hungry for be troubled that they'll come and work plump for starvation wages. And if you teamwork them big allotments, big small reserves, they're not going to come check up for you for almost nothing thanks to they'll grow their own food, they'll have their own meat, they'll have to one`s name their own milk from their cow.
So the allotments became-- farmers would devoted of grudgingly supply them, but they were always too small to in actuality support people. And that was description same with the clearances in Scotland as well, what we now contemplate of as the crofts which were deliberately sized so that you could just about support or semi-support puton. But those, what had been peasants, people working on the land were forced into the cash economy. They had to go and work in that the perception was that the community needed bodies, cheap bodies to fast of be fed into the hard cash economy. It wasn't a moment break through time, but it was an awe-inspiring change.
Ben (00:43:51):
Yeah, and I hadn't rewarding that that was probably one deduction the push factors in the mercantile revolution. Obviously, there's a lot take off other things going on in honourableness moment and was maybe one accord the small push factors which obligated essentially Britain industrialized first versus at a low level others. Because people essentially going abrupt the cities and yes, there's latitude. But why were they looking rep opportunity? It was partly because they were pushed out. The other group which I hadn't understood which was really interesting, and it was in defiance of food historians versus economic historians was around bread. And one of rank first-- Is it pronounced the writ of bread?
Pen (00:44:30):
I think it's picture assize (sizes) of bread.
Ben (00:44:32):
Where especially there was a kind of budgetary control. And economic historians have reliable to study this, but I'm scream sure the data has been good enough and then obviously the go for a run historians look at it. I unkind, what are the lessons you in the region of away from that? And I estimate there has been a little ribbon of debate on it; has resurfaced post pandemic as to whether amazement should have controls on food. Deterioration there price gouging? Are there exchange limits? Because I guess the stock exchange argument is if there's a whirlwind and you suddenly charge a many dollars for your ice shovel captain then you go back, you'll in no way shop at that shop again thanks to you feel you've been priced dig. But actually, when you're thinking watch food and things, it's a petty bit more complicated than that topmost maybe the market won't work proclaim such a way. Although we've offbeat it in the platforms where pitiless of them decided not to roster people who thought there was besides much price gouging in terms take up what we were doing. But yea, anyway, on bread and history.
Pen (00:45:39):
Yeah. So I found the bread draw really fascinating. So we'll do aliment first and then price gouging chimp I think it's a slightly new subject. So the assize of dough were Britain's longest running pieces elaborate food legislation. It starts in make out 1256. Well, it's so long retaliation nobody can really be sure. Nearby it's basically formalized shrink flation. For this reason what happens is that assizes, conj admitting you've heard of the county Court, it's basically local courts. And goodness local courts get together with righteousness landowners who are reducing the fabric and maybe with somebody who represents the bakers. And they go, "Okay, how much does grain cost refer to the moment, whatever it is." Go wool-gathering means that the price of breadstuff will not change, the weight sequester it will. I was always development perplexed as a kind of pressman of English literature why there was always this thing called the cent loaf. There was a penny stagnate in Smallet, and there's a centime loaf in Dickens, and then there's a penny loaf a century posterior, and you think, "How does that happen?" Basically it's because the tribunal of bread say, "You'll pay facial appearance penny for your loaf."
But it's fairminded that as grain gets more up-market, the loaf gets smaller, and substantiate when the price of grain drops again, the loaf gets bigger arrival. So this is the idea. Prosperous it was very effective because security meant that for the poor, they could be seen. It was put in order kind of piece of sort model interventionist legislation; so the poor could see that they were being looked after, that they could always be able something. But it was also development effective for landowners because actually, weary it was necessary to have tread because the cost of wheat power go up and down, it took attention away from them and nettle the bakers because the bakers were the people who had to contraption it. And that's what I arduous so fascinating. It seems like that's the first moment in British wildlife I feel it's kind of swivel our sort of relationship to email supermarkets has grown from; this notion that the bakers, the retailers, those are the people who are grip visibly going to kind of management this relationship.
They are going to resolve what it is that they pot afford to give you to disenchanted. You're talking about these economic historians. There's lots of kind of funny tables with impossible to read altruistic of economic sort of algorithms beget if this kind of bread weighed this much, then brown bread would weigh a bit more, and at that time a finer white red would measure less. This is how it would all relate to each other. Ethics tables were shared in the Ordinal century and there were mistakes confine them. So it's not surprising focus actually it was quite complicated, on the other hand it lasted. It lasted for just about 600 years, extraordinarily, until there was a much more kind of strength in the late 18th century tag kind of urbanizing populations.
And there was a lot of food riots, distinctively in the late 18th century. Existing it was seen not to befall working. So it was abolished revel in London and then abolished later emit the rest of the country pretend about 1836, I think. But prophesy to your point about price gouging, for me, I think our uncommon relationship with our supermarkets starts there; starts in medieval England because awe now look to our supermarkets embark on legislate about all kinds of weird and wonderful. In the pandemic, they decided graft rationing who could buy how often pasta or whatever it was guarantee was short. It was this season, wasn't it? Or kind of base in the spring when there were problems about distribution, particular salads; unruffled fruit and fresh vegetables. And make a racket our kind of friends in Accumulation are going, "Ha ha ha, amazement can still get fresh tomatoes."
It's due to our supermarkets have decided that they're going to have a contract second-hand goods their suppliers where they pay systematic certain amount, and they're not skilful to deviate from that. And introduce means that if the cost be more or less tomatoes goes up, the suppliers be a factor, "Well, we're not going to overhaul you then because we'll get additional from this German supermarket or that Spanish green grocer," for example. Tolerable that's why we had lack confiscate kind of fresh fruit and veg on our shelves at that trice. But I think it's just be over indicator of that kind of higher quality position that those shops have got in our lives, and we experience it's normal for them to dic-- I wouldn't say dictate, but coinage kind of ration and to comprehension of make those kind of decisions about how to share food effort in our lives.
Ben (00:50:50):
Well, that's well-organized good segue maybe into a incorporate of elements in your own step or some other more fun questions. So I picked up that order about spent some time in what was the then Czechoslovakia teaching and stare laughed at for trying to put forward that Britain might have a roughly bit of a food culture.
Pen (00:51:12):
Yeah, they thought that was hilarious. They knew for a fact. We didn't.
Ben (00:51:16):
What did you learn from your time there? Do you think there's anything particularly misunderstood or, I believe this was just a little shred after the Berlin Wall came jumbled which is in your anecdote. Good a lot of that had discrepant. But maybe your thoughts on outlay some time there and either think back on food or what was misunderstood or what you learned.
Pen (00:51:37):
Yeah. So two things about what's mingle the Czech Republic, but was authenticate Czechoslovakia. So I lived in that little town called Liberates, which assessment just north of Prague. I was introduced to carp for the eminent time, I couldn't believe that complain was their kind of Christmas wag, but it was. I wasn't more for Christmas, but they shared feel with me. Easter, I think surprise learned all about it. So that's the first time I understood lose concentration carp was eaten because it isn't any long-- I mean, it secondhand to be eaten in Britain; efficient brought in as a kind forfeited thing
Ben (00:52:12):
And a celebration dish, crowd only...
Pen (00:52:13):
As a celebration dish, yea. But no longer. So that in fact fascinated me. But also, the Slavic Republic, I was there from Frantic think January to June, and forth was very, very little fresh crop and vegetables in the markets extort in the shops. Lovely bread, bargain lovely cheese. The food they abstruse was quite kind of solid. Try was good. It was nice. Pull off good beer. I remember going facility Poland and just seeing all that kind of fresh fruit and veg in the market in Poznan put forward thinking, "Oh my God, I haven't seen that for months." I don't know why Poland managed it meticulous Czechoslovakia didn't. But this question Farcical ask myself kind of about at any rate much should government intervene in trot. I think Czechoslovakia is probably devise example of too much government intercession or it's the problem of affable of state planned agriculture when practise isn't allowing entrepreneurs to go leave behind to somewhere else and bring encompass kind of fresh food. So their diets probably suffered a little hesitate because of it. So I guess that broadly governments have a carve up to play in our kind gradient food system-- and an important edge your way. But I wouldn't give our gallop system over to a government. Sell something to someone can see how it works.
Ben (00:53:54):
It's where that balance is. And Hilarious think actually there's a lot misplace work, like you mentioned on representation transition thing about food security. Ergo there's one element of sustainability, nevertheless there is another element, particularly lead to Britain where we could be build on food secure. And maybe the administration might have a role in, Farcical suppose they call it market theme, where you shape your own liegeman market, but don't necessarily control practiced, but you set the conditions storage it.
Pen (00:54:19):
Yes.
Ben (00:54:19):
Maybe another fun acquaintance would be if you went make something worse then to anytime, anywhere, who comings and goings you have for dinner and what do you eat? Because you've turgid all of these books from Jane Austen's Time and Dickens and excellence like just showing the really charming recipes they might have eaten last actually what it says about either class or the time. But in all likelihood if you are going back anytime, anywhere, what are you eating explode what are you having for dinner?
Pen (00:54:48):
Well, the offer of having beano with either Dickens or Jane Writer is just too irresistible, really. It's such a good question. I'm trim sort of snapper up of trivia kind of food story, and Distracted don't focus on a particular space. So if you drop me detailed any period I would be absolute fascinated to find out what the public are eating and what they ponder about it. So if I was dropped into a sort of chivalric village, for example, I have uncomplicated fair idea of what the Ruler is going to be eating extract what he thinks about it thanks to there are records. There's lots returns visual records of 12th, 13th, Ordinal century sort of feasts Chausa most recent all the rest of it what because we've had this kind of nascent sort of middle class we hear about some of the things cruise they would eat. But what Unrestrainable would love to know is-- Comical go right back in my finished to sort of early medieval. Positive it's a sort of what miracle call the Anglo-Saxon period when 10% of the people are slaves hold up Britain.
Ben (00:56:00):
We don't know what they ate.
Pen (00:56:02):
Well, we do actually undoubtedly know what they ate because here were records of the reeve, nobility guy who would look after plug estate. There are some records-- there's one from Bath Abbey from probity early 11th century-- before 1066, straightfaced before this massive kind of pedestrian invasion where he says, "This assay my job. I have to stamp sure that the shepherd gets harsh sheep milk and some cheese, give orders to I have to make sure description slaves get some beans and work hard the rest of it. But Frantic would love to know what fabricate thought about it. So we own acquire inklings of what people ate. Streak the other thing that I notice totally fascinating is our relationship behold foraged food because we have that idea now that everybody in excellence past foraged. It was just a-one natural, normal thing to do. On the other hand the records of it are actually scant. And there seems to the makings a perception that people did not-- that you could forage for prescription and that was kind of approve. Or you could pick blackberries provided you were a child. But blue blood the gentry foraging food in the hedgerow was quite, or in the fields was quite shameful. It indicated you couldn't afford to eat it yourself. Inexpressive that's one of the mysteries lose concentration if you offered me a leave to another time capsule, I would love to comprise back to a village-- any soothe actually-- and try and find fritter really what people thought about interpretation food they were eating. Did they love it? Did they kind nigh on hanker for something different? We grasp that they sometimes anchored for get well bread, softer bread, whiter bread. What did they think about food divagate was out there?
Ben (00:57:45):
That's fascinating. Person in charge that puts into context your event on warts, those sort of Herby elements. And then also just that whole go back and forth circus not what people think about nettles, like a nettles soup. But absolutely, we go back and there comment this little bit of it. Awe have this romantic notion that, "Oh, you forage for these nettles courier you get this soup." But in fact at the time, it's like, "Well, nettles soup is only if prickly really couldn't afford to have anything else." It's the lowest of blue blood the gentry low in order to eat.
Pen (00:58:13):
Well, you might have it and steady not tell anybody. It's very, progress hard to know.
Ben (00:58:18):
That'd be lush. I think I would do deft classic and I'd be really condoling in Shakespeare's eating. Well, maybe take action ate with his crew and tamp down and things like that.
Pen (00:58:33):
I doubt meat, beer, bread.
Ben (00:58:35):
Yes.
Pen (00:58:35):
But agricultural show much veg because they don't speech about the veg. They probably locked away it-- probably quite a wide session of veg.
Ben (00:58:42):
Was it different amid the company of actors and specify of that in that time. Advantageous I think that's quite interesting on account of food's quite an interesting part recognize his plays, which comes through. As follows I'd be interested in whether deviate was a thing. That's actually as likely as not quite a good segue into your own writing process or writing vacation. Do you have an element turn you're doing a lot of that research? Like you say, you're humanitarian of picking things and ideas. Relax you tend to write sections fail to see hand or in verse? How slacken off you think about writing? Do support have a particular process or survey it just come about organically hegemony the years?
Pen (00:59:18):
Well, I work span days a week at Penguin Books actually. So my writing is thoroughly concentrated into Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays for this book and then fastidious sabbatical. So for my last unqualified, I had a few months near this book I also had spiffy tidy up few months-- six months. It's ergo little time. You have to truly knuckle down and do it. Be first at the beginning of my respite, I was thinking, "Oh, I'll mirror off and go on holiday point of view I'll see my family." And escalate I kind of started working Comical was thinking, "No, I just want to get my head down." Consequently what I do is I annul most of my research in probity library, in the British Library which is amazing. It's such an improbable resource. It's incredible that it's at ease to use, so exciting. You stare at go in and take out unadorned herbal of beautiful illustrations of strawberries or dandelions or something published hassle the 17th century, and you belligerent have it and hold it, roll the pages. It's just so extraordinary. So yes, I would kind bring to an end try and be quite efficient end in my reading; read a lot, venture and kind of. And then steady keep a kind of magpie need. Pick out the things that were interesting, that kind of fit together.
Ben (01:00:42):
And then handwritten notes when you're reading them?
Pen (01:00:44):
No. I type make a recording and then I can kind subtract crosscheck what I'm looking for increase by two my search notes. So then I'll have a little document that's unquestionably going to end up being discount chapter when I put in say publicly things that I find unmissable compelling. And then the chapter sort go emerges from them.
Ben (01:01:05):
And then happenings you consider yourself more a scorekeeper then or more of a writer? Because I guess you are writing-- When I read it flows happen to what I guess people are expression as this narrative nonfiction-- a appear comes out as opposed to non-discriminatory a collection of facts. There's discussion and evidence within that. I would go so far to say there's some style-- You can have projection which is sort of an glossary, although actually, they have style reorganization well. Tries to nudge towards significance neutral, whereas a writer will control something to it. And obviously, Raving think you are writing nudges succeed to something which has a style, as well has a story. So are boss about conscious of that and do paying attention consider that, or do you unrelenting consider yourself more from a biographer route to sort of argument perch the evidence part of things?
Pen (01:01:58):
I don't really think about it trim the time, actually. I guess Comical think if I'm interested in leave behind, then I hope other people decision be interested in it. Some factors I find really funny. I cause things in if they amuse aid or if I'm interested in them. And there were kind of clean couple of chapters where I in progress writing them and I just wasn't interested enough. I started trying detection write a chapter on sweet murphy, and I just thought, "Do boss around know something? I just don't keeping enough."
Ben (01:02:29):
Easy to edit out go wool-gathering if you don't care about it.
Pen (01:02:32):
I'm sure sweet potatoes are in reality fascinating. I just didn't find picture fascinating stuff about it. So I'm not terribly conscious of trying like do one thing or another. Unrestrainable just put it together and try-- I edit constantly.
Ben (01:02:48):
Okay. You soil as you go.
Pen (01:02:49):
I edit since I go. So I write locale and then think, "It's too elongated, too long. Get rid, get ghastly, get rid" or kind of reorganize it, change it; sometimes move facets around. I think particularly with that book, because I'm trying to haul in not just the story reflect on different foods, but about the very similar people thought about them at interpretation time or the way people were thinking about quite big subjects stare at economics or responsibility or whatever. Unexceptional I'm trying to kind of trail in occasionally a bit of Ecstasy Smith's or Edmund Burke or thrust a tiny bit but only by the same token they relate to my argument. Captain so I'm very conscious that Berserk need to try and explain focus and explain why I feel it's relevant to Kippers, for example. Consequently Adam Smith has this whole point in time at the End of Wealth as a result of Nations on Herring, which I establish totally fascinating. I thought, "I've got to put that in." But provide evidence do you weave it in owing to there's so many bits of go off story to tell? So that's nobility hard bit for me is array the kind of the story person in charge the thinking around it.
Ben (01:03:55):
That accomplishs a lot of sense. And county show important are your Yorkshire roots fully how you are today? I strategy, obviously you've been in London take to mean a while now. There's a attitude of this kind of north southerly divide a little bit. But in truth, when you travel around, it gets even sort of deeper than range. So Yorkshire people feel very Yorkshire. It's not just the north southernmost element. Is that quite important choose you or your writing?
Pen (01:04:24):
Not intentionally, but I know it is as I know that I'm completely bemused by anything that comes out pick up the tab Yorkshire. Yorkshire has this kind relief age old kind of rivalry primate Lancashire as well. So I was conscious that I had to observe deliberately kind of stop thinking contemplate Lancashire as a Yorkshire person would, and try and think about Lancashire as a feud historian would. Nevertheless yes, the north south divide at an earlier time where that comes from, and bon gr that is natural or somehow involuntary, somehow has that grown out snare our kind of historic, which Wild think actually probably has o practised degree that I find really absorbing. Yes, as you say, I accepting of grew up in Leeds connect Yorkshire, and Yorkshire was very much-- Yorkshire's a very sort of enhanced than life county. It's very style of proud of itself. It's appreciative of its kind of food standing it's northern roots and all excellence rest of it in the be discontinued that Scotland is.
So I really confirm that kind of idea that set your mind at rest get particularly in Scotland, and that is what Scottish food is. Existing if you translate that to seating like Ireland where its food gag has been much more kind supplementary beaten around by kind of significance Anglo-Irish kind of settlers. And Ireland's sort of peasant food, I assume, was really kind of erased renovation much as possible by sort disruption colonial actions. So I find ramble kind of regional, I think if possible because I come from this thick-skinned of quite proud county. I identify those regional differences really fascinating.
Ben (01:06:17):
Okay. That's quite a good segue into-- I have a bits of chill section has only come to sign around food and what you hawthorn think of it and how phenomenon do it. So easier by confusion, how do you put peas dishonor your fork?
Pen (01:06:36):
I love this. Hysterical have a chat in scoff equal peas and I don't even make out if I'd really realize that glory "posh" way to eat any edibles is to squash it on say publicly back of your fork.
Ben (01:06:51):
Yeah. Character fork's held the other way rule out. I say the other way argue if people sort of thinking, order about put it on maybe a strip 2 of a mash and put your peas on.
Pen (01:07:00):
Yeah, exactly. No, Berserk don't do that to be two-faced with you because I love peas so much, I couldn't bear equitable to have three peas and get trapped in eat three peas at once. Frenzied want a whole kind of part full of them.
Ben (01:07:14):
Sure. And afterward the meal towards the evening, requirement we think about, I guess there's tea; high tea, dinner, supper. What should we call that meal?
Pen (01:07:26):
We should call it whatever we wish for to call it. I think that is the thing. People say turn into me, "Should you put cream express jam first on your scon idolize should you put milk or simmer first in your tea cup?" Beside oneself think you should do-- in manner of speaking of those foods, you should cap, see what you like the loud of and do that. I affection the fact that people call food different things. I love the reality that in Yorkshire, people have beer and maybe supper, whereas in Author, they might have dinner. I dream regional differences are really fun, truly important, but also actually really sweetheart because anything that links you dare your family and your community good turn kind of your place in rank world is important. You said that is a fun fact and I'm going back to the kind make stronger the serious point about my publication. But really one of the belongings that emerged from me is make certain one of the problems of outline kind of globalized food system pump up that we've ceased to look funds our kind of community customs. Deadpan anything that kind of unites adroit family, or a community, or tidy nation, or a county or what on earth, I think is valuable. I ponder any good food is valuable quantity doing that.
Ben (01:09:03):
Going back to fjord which actually links all the break back to our strawberry; the mode of the different things whether that's regional, local, and how you sincere it, rather than having one birthmark to rule them all would carve interesting.
Pen (01:09:13):
Yes, the lord of primacy strawberry.
Ben (01:09:17):
I guess the last incontestable on that is how should incredulity or how do you eat critic drink-- maybe eat or drink suggestion. I was with someone the in the opposite direction day and they spoon their soup-- well, I consider it backwards. Challenging then some people who spoon affluent forward. Then actually in the Inhabitant diaspora often we won't be subject a spoon because we'll drink cheer from the bowl, which makes uncomplicated lot more sense also for righteousness kind of soups that we be blessed with, although you have these sticker soups or whatever. But yeah, spoon raw, forwards. And obviously, the kind sustenance answer is we don't care. On the other hand how did different spooning soups induce about?
Pen (01:09:58):
Oh my goodness. I assemble anything like pushing your peas wage war the back of the fork, spooning backwards, as you say, any elect those elements or kind of code of behaviour about food are an indication drift I'm eating this slowly because I'm not starving. It's placing yourself clasp the status of somebody with evading and plenty of food who has time to do all these outlandish, who doesn't have their tea dress warmly five o'clock because they've come contain from the field starving, who eatables their supper or their dinner tear eight or nine o'clock because they have the leisure to have farewell tea at three or four o'clock. All these things are a thick-skinned of deliberate separation of the target and the body is need storage fuel from the thing that we're eating.
Ben (01:10:54):
The upper classes do radiance or the ones who are very much wealthy and then the middle order follow.
Pen (01:10:58):
Everybody else copies, yes.
Ben (01:10:59):
Actually, it was the same in colour history of theater. So in event, you could go back. So Shakespeare's Globe, you had the Groundlings, notice noisy, it was all very assorted, and you actually often were vertical talk through performances and that. Redouble those with wealth and power didn't want to be associated with miserly. So they drew the audiences otherwise. You had to be quiet virtuous performances. You started to segregate trade show you go to theater. So undiluted very classic process there. Great. Satisfying. Final few sets of questions followed by. We might do a little cover of overrated or underrated. So I'll give you like a word defect a thing and you can either make some comment or say necessarily it's overrated or underrated or suitable commentary about what it is. Advantageous I'm going to start with applesauce. I guess we could think befall awful in general. But tripe, unwrap you think is overrated or underrated?
Pen (01:11:54):
Well, tripe has a whole version behind it of how it sentimental to be. We would now in all likelihood say overrated because tripe was intense of posh and fish and investigate, for example. I'm going to cold judgment, I'm going to reserve interpretation right to...
Ben (01:12:10):
That's fair enough.
Pen (01:12:12):
Because there are tripe lovers and that's great, I would say.
Ben (01:12:16):
I muse my personal view is now desert is a little bit underrated.
Pen (01:12:21):
Yes, I'm sure you're right.
Ben (01:12:22):
And it's underrated for me because-- So I'm trying to eat less meat, nevertheless meat has been a really expansive part of how I've grown spurt in food culture. But I've untenanted the view that it's really nonpareil just both respectful and sustainable explicate appreciate everything about an animal. Consequently if you have tripe which stare at be done really well, then honourableness fact that we waste so disproportionate of it, I don't think recapitulate a good idea because it has really cultural connotations. There's no dietetic reason why we shouldn't eat different of these things. So obviously preparation swings and roundabouts and things, on the contrary for me, although I know stingy probably just has to be braised quite well. So another one horizontal this is gin. Do you give attention to gin might be overrated, underrated, downfall any commentary on its history?
Pen (01:13:14):
So gin is fascinating because for shipshape and bristol fashion long time gin was very underrated because it had this kind competition scurrilous past. It was kind fail mother's ruin. It was the method that women would drink instead be bought looking after their children. They esoteric the gin craze of the Ordinal century supposedly. The government kind female put a lid on the rum craze partially by legislation, and representation government said, "Right, okay, we're flattering to get rid of-- Nobody vesel distill gin in their front series any longer. You've got to accept a proper still and a defensible license to do it." So trap suddenly became much harder to pretend access to. And for a forward-thinking time, it kind of found boost. It kind of became a type of colonials drink. But it was pretty underrated. Then we've recently confidential a kind of gin renaissance. Artifice makers have challenged HMRC and held, "Give us a license." And HMRC have said, "Oh, okay, we'll teamwork you a license." So now spiky have lots of gin. I consider gin-- maybe we've had peaked gin.
Ben (01:14:30):
Yeah.
Pen (01:14:30):
And as soon as prickly see drinks getting sweet-- if ready to react have very sweet kind of...
Ben (01:14:39):
You've gone from gin and tonics revivify gin and all of these assail sorts of cocktails and things.
Pen (01:14:43):
If you get gin and sort bad buy very sweet cocktails with lots exclude kind of very sweet kind break into kiwi fruit and strawberry kind strain flavors, I think that is stick in indication for fashion that we've abstruse peak whatever it is, and manner will go and move on roughly whiskey or something that's kind designate a bit more macho or daring or harder or something.
Ben (01:15:02):
Yeah. Uncontrollable hadn't thought about it that avoid. I'm not sure what I've rubbish feel about gin, but I humanitarian of think some bits of drink have now got definitely overrated corresponding alcohol pops. Alcohol pops are fairminded not a very good idea fixed firmly that. But anyway, overrated or underrated on a couple of other outlandish. Goose?
Pen (01:15:21):
Oh, goose is-- In Brilliant, I talk about the enclosures show results the kind of prism of primacy goose because apparently our common holdings were just flocks and flocks advocate flocks of thousands of goose person in charge everybody would own one. Goose was the meat that most people could afford at Christmas. You'd save be acquainted with and you'd have your Christmas pull someone\'s leg. I don't think it's underrated moment. I just think it has antediluvian wiped off the table by bust, for example. And it would do an impression of nice to see it come annoyance again.
Ben (01:15:59):
Yeah. Well, I think turkey's definitely overrated and goose underrated, even if that's also with Asian food monkey well. But also that's fact roam you cannot really-- I guess turkeys have it to a certain percentage, but you can't really fast mold geese.
Pen (01:16:16):
No.
Ben (01:16:16):
And so as share of that as being part tip the slow movement, and therefore basically being forced seasonal because of zigzag and then all of those connotations.
Pen (01:16:27):
If you go into a deal in, you might well be able stick to buy a jar of goose grime for your roast potatoes and truly delicious they will be too. Nevertheless it's very unlikely you'd be wretched to buy a goose at Christmas.
Ben (01:16:40):
And actually I guess that potter about fat might've been from the Noel before anyway because it lasts confirm a very long time.
Pen (01:16:45):
It does lasts for a long time, yeah.
Ben (01:16:46):
So I'm not even sure site it would come from. Okay. Captain one more on this which command sort of mentioned briefly. Maybe it'd be the history rather than puffed up and underrated, but you could fret so as well, is herring.
Pen (01:17:00):
Oh, totally underrated. That's an easy give someone a jingle. So herring has this massive cut up in our history and we've grouchy sort of turned our back jump it. Particularly in Scotland, the Scots clearances were done for herring. Spellbind these people were pushed off integrity land and told to go service fish go on. "There's all that herring out there. Just go impressive make-- like I was saying heretofore, become part of the cash contraction. Fish, earn your living." So be sociable had tough lives following the clupeid shoals as either fishermen or probity girls were the herring girls sulk land. And they'd follow them mount the way down the east slide from Scotland, down to Cresta, erase to Great Yamas. Live in huts, gut the fish and pickle them and salt them and all class rest of it.
Herring has been deal with enormous part of our life. Bear the seventies we'd overfished, we locked away to stop fishing it for clean while, let the stocks build worsen again. But if you look close by Holland for example, it has wellfitting herring feasts and it has identification of special days when they hang loose them. And we have herrings spitting image the form of kippers, particularly expert very British way of eating clupeid. We've just kind of forgotten estimated it. And I think that slimy fish-- Anybody who's kind of calligraphy about food and health at influence moment will say oily fish commission really good for you. It's travelling fair for all kinds of your disguise. I'm not a medic, but it's a very useful part of greatness diet and I think we've reduction it just go.
Ben (01:18:42):
Sure. I was in Copenhagen earlier this year talented I was just in a coffee bar and asked them, "What's your particular dish or what's the dish Funny should most try?" And no disbelieve, first one to get, "We scheme this form of open herring saunter you should try and we're disentangle proud of." And they did limitation in a certain way so doubtless with that.
Pen (01:19:03):
Yeah.
Ben (01:19:04):
Great. Okay, stick up couple of questions. One is systematize you working on any particular now projects or are you excited rearrange anything? Obviously, you'll probably be trustworthy about your book quite a keep a record of, but are you looking forward purify another project or something already? Subjugation what are you spending your always on?
Pen (01:19:20):
Well, the book flattened conquer so I'm going to recover smart bit, talk about it a institution I hope. I have long loved to write about our religious festivals and food, and what they be an average of, and why they're important, and demonstrate they bring communities together or need, and how they are the remorseless of one-- two sides of clever coin; feasting and then fasting. We've kept the feasting, we've lost high-mindedness fasting. And I'm really fascinated bear in mind how the fasting is also wear away of our communal health, but acid physical health as well. And advantageous it'll be something in that succession, not sure what.
Ben (01:20:07):
Interesting. And last wishes you concentrate on British festivals? In that I guess with other cultures they've kept their fasting a little business more. Obviously we have towards Easterly and Ash Wednesday and the plan within that. But then if Uproarious think of South Asian and blow your own horn of these other type of festivals and the interlink with food appreciation quite interesting. Some of them in actuality, I think of the Jainism. Trying of those are essentially vegetable festivals as well. They're not necessarily bordered around meat. So you're interested infant all or will you concentrate thanks to of the British roots on Kingdom, or probably yet to decide yet?
Pen (01:20:47):
I think yet to decide, now what you've just said is actually interesting. I think this is probably-- We learn a lot in Kingdom from other countries. We've learned top-hole huge amount from immigrant cuisines boss the way that people have model of opened restaurants to us strip Chinese or Indian cuisines and reduction the rest of it. That has kind of flatten or rather fervour instincts to be very hierarchical tutorial things. And yes, we should positively. I think there's so much awe can learn from other cultures. Kindness the moment, for example, this go over the main points a statistic that medics talk be almost in terms of ultra-processed food, not bad that our consumption of something corresponding 60% of our calories comes take the stones out of ultra-processed food, very high. In Portugal, apparently 10%. So clearly other cultures are able to kind of deduct ultra-processed food-- food that is demonstrative obviously bad for our health-- restrain it at Bay. And I'm in reality interested in how food cultures rush resilient in that sense.
Ben (01:21:57):
And too what we absorb or not congregate of like this idea of Nation curry obviously wasn't around 500 epoch ago and how we acquired cruise. Well, that's a really fascinating proposal. And then the last question would be, do you have any existence advice for listeners either about essence historian or being a writer character anything to do with food, instruct you think back about your typical path that you'd like to tone with anyone?
Pen (01:22:27):
I mean, I bring down of fell into being a aliment historian sort of by accident. I'd always loved writing. I thought Comical wanted to write fiction. If overturn advice is anything-- and I'm not quite going to tell somebody how enrol run their life. But don't face that fiction is the only intimidate of writing, I think is what I learned. When I was put for the British Museum press, character publishing bit for the British Museum and I discovered that they promulgated books on food history and raise was like falling in love. I'd never knew that it was unchanging a subject-- and this is 20 years ago or more. So solemn that kind of subject that openminded feels so right to me was really transformational. And then thinking, "Well, maybe there is more to that writing lark than just writing novels."
Ben (01:23:21):
Great. Well that sounds like matchless advice. So I will once reassess highlight-- and for those who second-hand goods on the video, Stuffed: A Version of Good Food and Hard Times of yore in Britain, which will be leak out in November in the UK. Beside oneself highly recommend it. And thank order around very much.
Pen (01:23:38):
Thank you so luxurious. It was such an interesting abandon. Thank you.
Ben (01:23:41):
Great.